What’s up, guys? I guess how we all got to meet today and for that reason saying we’re just here to discuss kind of our own stories, share our marketing journeys, and hopefully to help you guys out with, I guess, finding your dream job or not. Sorry. I guess that’s a yes. So maybe it’s not your dream job. This is not my dream. Basically just helping you guys to progress in your careers. And yeah, just if you guys can take anything actionable away from our stories and the things that we hear today. Awesome. If not, enjoy the show. Yeah. So why don’t we get started with Tim. How did you start with Adris.
OK, so this is the question I get asked quite often. Basically when they meet any new people. Eventually everything will come to the question like how did you end up with the church? Like what’s the story? Especially since I am from Ukraine and now I’m working for a company that does global stuff. So how did it all go? I actually I’ve been to a civil and digital marketing for, I think nine years right now, and it all started from some junior. So role what I was trying to learn. I saw myself reading different blogs, watching videos and trying out like my small new websites for like Amazon affiliates for just banner advertising back when you could make money with banner advertising and all that stuff. And fast forward a few years when I was when I had enough experience and enough money in my account to create something on my own. I started my personal blog and they started some projects on my own. And I even launched a tool that was supposed to be kind of a small competitor. But at the time, I didn’t know even that some exists because it was like I think four or five years ago. So I never I have never heard of Masuma, but I wanted to create a tool where you would plug someone’s blog and it will show you the most popular articles on that blog, because back then, no one was doing it. But everyone wanted to know, like what gets popular on social media. We’ll get more tweets like it was shortly after Facebook and Twitter introduced their Twitter like buttons that all the websites implemented. So it was like a thing. And as it was releasing these kinds of projects and working on my personal blog, I was doing outreach. So classic outreach to get links, classic outreach, to get guest articles, to get mentions and all that stuff, and in the process of outreach. I reached out to a blog back then, it was handled by Helen. She works in support. She was doing these roundups of links like here here’s what, like weekly weekly stuff that was happening in the in the marketing space. And she was listing some interesting articles. So we reached out to her and I knew that Trev’s is a company that comes from Ukraine, that the founder is Ukrainian because they’ve read a few of his interviews online. So I basically wrote kind of cheesy emails saying that, like, I’m a fellow Ukrainian and we should help each other like some bonding and all that stuff. And I don’t remember what exactly I wanted if I showed them my article or if I showed them my tool or whatever it was. But I, I think I got featured in this kind of roundup. And shortly after this, I got an email from HFS founder and CEO Dmitry, who said that he researched me a little bit. He likes my work. And he invited me to kind of write a few articles for Trev’s and see if we can work together. So this is how it all started. Like so it’s not it’s not me who suggested to work for Dmitri who actually researched my work. He actually saw that I had published articles on my blog and that these are that article had some I had won some awards. So I think this impressed him and he kind of wanted to try working with me and actually quite fast, I think within two weeks, maybe three weeks max, as I started digging, digging into each other’s tools, I saw a lot of things that I didn’t think were quite right. So I wanted to improve them. And they messaged Dmitry all the time, like, I don’t think like your homepage copy is like is great. I don’t think that what you’re publishing on your blog is great. I don’t think that you like explaining the metrics in the interface well and all that stuff or like suggesting some kind of features. Like it would be fun to have this kind of filter here. It would be fun to have this kind of report. And so basically within like two or three weeks we like I started working more and more with interest and not only kind of writing some articles for them, but also contributing to the actual product development and creating the website, website, copy work and pricing page and all that little stuff. And Mitry shortly after offered me to come to Singapore and to be in charge of marketing, be in charge of marketing, I would say, quote unquote, because I was the only marketing person when they came to Singapore shortly before I came to Singapore, the woman that was working in Asia was marketing. She left for another company. So basically there was no one for me to work with and I was the only person. So this is how it all started for me. I started working myself on pretty much everything, like on homepage, copy on YouTube, channel on blog, on Hinz reports, feature requests, design, like I was doing everything like myself. And then with time it got I got to like hiring people who would help me, who are better than myself with something. And this is how these two guys ended up here. So I think the between you, you two, Josh, was the next hire. Yes. So, Josh, do you want to tell the story from your end? Because I is how it happened from my end. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, yes, I think he was like a couple of years ago now. I was working on like a big leap. Traffic was kind of post and hopefully some of you might see at some point and yeah. So like five months creating that and then publish it on my own blog. And it’s, they are now five months. There’s like 60000 ones. Yeah.
It was huge but I.
Yeah. And I think you reached out to me in late 2016, like 2016. In September or something or you know. Yeah. 2016. And you said, you know, I might write a post for the transplant and I can get I just kind of went on from there. So I was like freelancing for my until earlier this year freelancing. I’m just doing it for the blog and then of officially hired this year. And since then that kind of content which basically just been done doing more of the same. But yeah, yes.
I think the the interesting bit that you’re overlooking is that I actually ask you, like, what’s your motivation to publish such a huge article? He said how long it was 60 key
words, yes, 60000.
Yes, so it was a huge article. There was a lot of it was like a ton of work invested there. And it was published in basically a blog that was just launched that there was nothing there but this article. And they wrote an email to Josh and like said, look, what’s the motivation of doing this kind of work? Do you think that you can get better ROIC if you write for us? Like, do we want like to build the kind of your credibility in the need? Do you want to kind of end up creating some kind of paid courses or like do we want to scale your agency? Like, whatever you do, I see that you are like you are willing to invest a lot of work. So I’m sure that we can figure out between you and the stress away where like each of us will benefit. Yeah. And so I think this was persuasive enough for George to join. Yeah.
Yes. Basically, I just like to do your work. That’s all that really drives me to do anything. And I just want to make something that’s a judgment that, you know, the people actually want to read a benefit from. And you can just give me the ability to do that. You just give me the freedom to do that and like the resources to do that. So it’s there’s nothing that could be better from my point of view, because that’s that’s why I enjoy just create something and just putting something out there for people to read and learn from.
Yeah. Actually, I think one other interesting thing that I want to share right now is that usually when you read some kind of hiring advice, the most common advice that they give you is that you should hire people better than you. But it’s like super hard. Like if you if you’re quite knowledgeable in what you do, it’s super hard to find people who are better than you. But in the case of Josh, it was like the actual case when I realized that these guys can produce content like way better than I am. And one other thing is that Josh has like some experience with stuff that I don’t know anything about, like scraping Google sheets, working with different tools. So I don’t have a lot of experience with that. I’m more like a generalist. So I know kind of the basic like the basics of here and there, and they can connect the dots. But if you dig a little bit deeper, my knowledge is not so good. So this is why it was like super happy to find Josh. And they really before Josh, I was struggling to find someone for a blog who’d have like more experience than me in this cell and except for that, would be able to kind of write write it in an article, in a good article, because a lot of people have better experience than me in this. So, like, it’s not that hard to be better than myself. And so especially technically so. But like, combine that with ability to explain yourself and to write like a great article that’s rare. So, like, I kind of took the proactive approach. I didn’t just post a few ads on different sites that we are looking for, like head of content. We are looking for a blog editor who would take our blog to the next level, blah, blah. Actually, I did post these kinds of things. Yeah, I did. I did post these kinds of ads, but like, it wasn’t working. I saw that everyone who applied wasn’t really what I was looking for. So when I saw Josh publish this like huge, monstrous article, I kind of knew that I should, like, hire this guy immediately. And I was lucky that he only published one article on his blog. He he didn’t invest like enough time and money and resources into his blog to to be willing to abandon it afterwards. So I think some luck was also involved there.
Yeah, I think that’s that’s some pretty good advice there. You mentioned someone who’s better than you and so Josh and come up to you and say, look, I’m better than you. And so, you know, he should hire me. Yeah. But he just kind of proved himself through it. And I think for startups, for small and midsize companies, that’s often what they’re looking for, someone who’s self-sufficient and you can direct it with minimal supervision, I guess minimal training. And I think that’s that’s really good is that you were able to go out and create a sixty thousand word. Oh, I can’t even call it a post fact. I probably took, like, your page. It was probably like twenty five seconds of text. But, you know, it’s to be able to go out there, be proactive just to do it, to show that, you know, you’re more than knowledgeable enough. That’s the word I’m looking for. Self sufficient internal. That’s the right word. But I think yes, no problem.
English is your first language. It’s OK for you to look.
Speaker 1: I’m sure. Yeah, but anyway. So for me, for you, you look very, very different story. So I need
Speaker 2: to tell them that I don’t know because your team does it three times that I
Speaker 1: don’t know how. I think I know the full story. Yeah, so like I told you, I kept telling him, like you don’t know. And so he kind of wanted to say, like, you want to give me a heads up before. So this is the first time hearing this. So, OK, so basically I come from a background. Originally I started online marketing 2000, end of 2008, and so I started to build my own company, sold it off. The typical story that you hear from the younger generation now of Internet marketers. And so I experimented quite a bit and I was trying to figure out like, what is it that I enjoy doing SEO zero Legian. And because when I started my first business, I knew absolutely nothing. I kind of had to learn everything on my own. And so I eventually settled on lead generation, particularly in Cairo. And so I started doing my own little projects and stuff, eventually got a lucky break with a company that would send me leads. And so I would just do agency type work. And then from there it’s just I just started doing Legian. I started my own personal blog, and then I was like, I have a really cool idea. And so I tend to come up with, like, ideas that I think are pretty creative. I don’t know if these guys think so, but I think that they’re pretty, pretty creative. And so I was like, you know what? What if if I wanted to get a new client for agency work? What if I looked at the intention? So the intention is if you look at a job, you know that they’re trying to hire someone. So if I do that and the intent is already there, then it must be easier to close that make sense. OK, and so I was just like I was looking through like some of my blogs and the blogs that I like and the websites. And I was already in each customer for a few years and I saw a position for a final hacker. And so I was like, interesting files. I can be funneled that probably, you know, better than the average person, you know, who does a conundrum sequence and that’s considered a funnel, which is not. But then I was like, cool. So I emailed him and I basically said, hey, I answered all those questions. I said, hey, here’s my funnel, sent him a video. I don’t know if other people sent you could use or if you even had other applications.
Speaker 2: No, I don’t think I had too many applications, just a few. And they don’t even remember if they sent me any videos at all.
Speaker 1: Yes, I sent him a video kind of just walking walking him through it, and we were just sending emails back and forth. And so, like, my whole intention this time was to be a great guy to have. Right. And Tim’s I’m guessing you’re your intent was we’re looking for someone to hire like an employee. Yeah. And so we had different things. And so I was like, you know, it doesn’t matter. It’s more or less the same thing. It’s just a matter of the way that you look at it. And so we ended up talking and we talked for quite a while, for about four months,
Speaker 2: I think maybe more.
Speaker 1: It was four months. And then we said, we don’t want that right now. And I was like, no problem. That’s cool. And so you’re like, we may open that position up a few months later. So it’s like, sounds good and so can didn’t follow up. And so, of course, being in Legian, I was, like I said, a reminder for myself. And so as soon as that time came up, I’m not going to email him on the exact day. But it’s like I saw a notification that had opened my email and there’s notifications like that. And then when that happens, it triggers an email. It’s like, oh yeah, I’m supposed to email. And so I was like, all right. So I was like, Hey, Tim, I was just thinking about whatever. And then, you know, wondering if there’s been any progress on that. And then he’s like, I don’t think we’re going to do that now, but we need somebody to create video content. And I was like, all right, I’ve done a few videos and we were talking. And I think in total it was eight or nine months before we’re like, yeah, let’s do this.
Speaker 2: And it was like the slowest hiring process ever.
Speaker 1: And so and then from there, like for the first few months, we don’t really know what we were doing. So we experimented with a few things. And then and then now the video said you guys get every week is a product of a year’s worth of work. So, yeah, that’s kind of the making of Apple. I don’t need trips and it’s been kind of interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think from my end there is a takeaway that like when they when they open position for final Hekker, to be honest, it wasn’t like some deep thinking behind it. So I just knew like like I said, I’m not an expert like any particular thing I know a little bit of here and there. But when they when they want to start working on something, I want to actually dig a little bit into it to understand like what what we are doing and to have the responsibility for doing it. So when I posted the ad for Funnel Hekker, kind of my intention was to speak to people and to see if anyone will be able to persuade me that he will help us. So when Sam reached out and we started talking and we started discussing Fattal’s actually. In the process of talking to Sam, I was able to understand that I don’t believe in finals for each that’s at least and at the time of like what was happening to the company at that moment. To be honest, I still don’t believe in finals for each other for this time. Yeah, Sam was working on. But yeah, like our conversations as we were going back and forth, Sam was pretty open, like with devoting a little bit of his time to come up with ideas to record with some screen guys to to walk me through what kind of ideas he has. Because, like, I know that a lot of people are super afraid to share their ideas up front. Like if I’m going to share my ideas with this company, they will just steal my ideas and they’ll hire me like it almost never happens, because when you want to get hired to some company, they want to hire you because they don’t have the bandwidth to do it themselves. It’s not always that they are lacking ideas. They are lacking good people to like act to perform on these ideas. So Sam was pretty open to discussing like anything he could do for us. So I asked him, like, what do you think? Like how the funnel would look like? So he he would break down the funnel for me. I would ask him, like some other questions, like, do you think this part of the funnel makes sense? What if these people will appear in the final? How would you up to automated do understand the resources that we have to understand, like like if we want a designer for that, if you will need to record videos for that, if we will need to support it somehow with more content. So we were discussing all these bits and in the process of discussion, I was realizing that like funnels, it’s not something we want to like invest our marketing resources into. But what I what I did realize is that Sam was pretty familiar with the traps, that Sam was a pretty good presenter, that Sam like. I think another another adviser that I’ve heard from, like hiring articles or hiring books, is that you should hire a person who can write great emails. So if the if the email that you sent, if you send the person an email with some questions and you get a reply and the reply is structured and they’re addressing like every single question that you had for them, and they’re not leaving out anything and they’re not adding any irrelevant stuff that will just waste your time just by communication with the person you can see, like how good they are. If they’re like now, if they will execute well, if they will listen to you, if they will kind of comply and agree with you on everything or if they have their own opinion. So a lot can be understood just by communicating with the person via email. So what I understood is that Sam is like very organized, that he’s a good presenter. He recorded quite a few samples of videos for me. So when I realized that we don’t really need files in the kind of in the definition of like what funnel has been and marketing, but we still need educational materials. We still need to educate people not just with text content, but with the video content as well. And then Sam popped out again and suggested to continue the conversation about how he could contribute and how he could give value to a Trev’s. We kind of the second time we agreed like much more easily than whether we were talking about funnel specifically. So because of the second time, Sam was willing to simply explore, like how his expertize, how his abilities would be helpful to Trev’s. And we found the like the position quite easily compared to like funnel kiker position. OK, do you want to add an extra like takeaways?
Speaker 1: Any extra takeaways to that? Persistence I guess is one thing beats resistance. Yeah, absolutely. But I think that so it’s not that I was desperate to get a job or anything like that. It was just like, oh, look, I remember this. I like to traffic. I really love the tool before, you know, I had a spoken with actually. Do you remember the very first email that I sent you?
Speaker 2: Not really.
Speaker 1: To the very first email that I sent to Tim. And I think that this is a good lesson for outreach is that people often approach outreach with motivation to receive something. Yeah, right. So, like, give me a link, give me a share, whatever it may be. And so I went through this process where it’s like nobody knows me. I’m the Internet marketing space, like all my stuff is with like small medium sized businesses. And so if I want to start to connect with people, I have to start speaking to them like a human being. And so I sent him an email and I just said, hey, I really respect the work that you do at HFS. Like, I love the tool. I love the blog of the content you’re producing. That’s it. And then he wrote back to me. She doesn’t remember, but he said something like, hey, like, thanks so much, you made my day. Maybe he says that to everyone, but it’s all actually I
Speaker 2: can say that they get a lot of praise, like every day open my email box and I’m like, oh, not again. They’re praising me for my work. It doesn’t happen too often. So when I reply to someone and say that thank you, you’ve made my day, it’s pretty genuine.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it’s that’s the thing, though, is that when he responds back, I don’t reply. By the way, you have a broken link. Do you want to replace it with mine? So it’s not like there’s there’s no motivation to get something back. It’s just an introduction. And so whether he recognized my name or not, when the final hacker position went in, maybe he did subconsciously, maybe doesn’t remember now because it was all well over a year ago.
Speaker 2: I need to pull conversation. Fewster Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so I feel like small things like that help with just in general, just networking and meeting people and people often see like email scripts. And I hate those two words together. It’s just an email. Right. And I find that people often forget about that. And I know it’s kind of going off on a tangent, but I think that it is related in the sense that we’re just communicating through email and often an introduction email that someone can help recognize the name or face or whatever it may be. I thought that it actually helped when I approached you originally. Maybe.
Speaker 2: OK, so I think we can write it up probably with some general lessons out of our conversation. And actually, like while we were talking and discussing this and the things you shared, your approach that you were basically trying to get leads for agency, I saw that actually the same stuff pretty much applies for getting leads to your agency. It just it doesn’t always depend on you because some companies, they are open to outsourcing their work to agencies. Other companies prefer to have it in-house no matter what. And it also I think it also partially depends on the type of service that you’re offering, because in terms of educational materials, we definitely wanted to have it in-house. However, there’s a guy called Brian Harris from Video Fraud, and his story is that he basically started offering video explanatory videos to kiss metrics, I believe. So he was able to persuade this kind of company to do videos for them while being called it an agency or outsourced or contractor or whatever we like to call it. So let’s wrap it up with some lessons. Whether you want to get companies as leads as your clients or whether you want to establish like long form relationship, be like an in-house or you guys are actually outsourced. You work from the comfort of your homes. I work from the comfort of our office. I think it’s quite comfortable. So like you see, we have different situations. And depending, like on your goals, I think you might learn some lessons from our conversation and from three of our stories, but maybe some can wrap up some lessons.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think in terms of lead generation for SEO agencies, it doesn’t really matter what you do. A lot of it is is in. I want to use the word persuasion, but it’s not in a in a sleazy kind of way, it’s like it’s kind of like the way that you persuade a judge, you ask them a question to make them think like, what is it? What is my motivation? And maybe I don’t know what your thoughts were, but maybe you’re like maybe writing for eight drafts. I have a platform that has an existing audience, but I don’t have to, you know, hustle as hard.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it was more than just that. I knew the day, not time, the resources available. It’s kind of just allow me to do great work. Yeah. And that’s just what I want to do. Like I’ve said before, it’s just that’s why I spent so many months just writing a crazy long article because I just wanted to put something great out there. When I was doing that, I was just thinking, like, you know, I just want to do something that people notice. People care.
Speaker 2: And so I’d say, OK, let me try to recap. First is to reach out. So the more people to reach out to the more companies you reach out to, the higher the chance that someone will reply. Because it’s not always it doesn’t always depend on you. It also depends on the company. They might be they might not be in the stage where they are willing to hire someone like you might be emailing them in their own time. So first, just send more outreach emails. Second, don’t be afraid to share your ideas because like sharing your ideas, like, don’t worry, no one will steal them because it’s an execution that matters. It’s not your ideas that matter. So feel free to like write them your best ideas on what you can do, like with their company, what kind of value you can contribute. Because unless you do, how would they know, like if you be helpful to them or not sort of actually spend some of your time to do some work for them, not just offer you ideas but do some work for them in case of some like language I discussed, we talked for like almost a year back and forth. So you wasted a lot of time just talking to me. And actually it was mutually beneficial because I was learning something from Sam. Sam was learning something from me. So it’s not like a zero sum game that you’re just offering your expertize, your advice and you’re getting nothing in return. Of course, you will get something in return. In any case, or at least you can just agree on some small paid gig, like without super high commitment. One, two, three, do some work. And like that’s it for me. Three.
Speaker 1: What’s your biggest takeaway from your experience with with Demetrius?
Speaker 2: Could this part make it seem that they encircle most things to build movement? Well, I don’t even know, like if there’s any main takeaway I just enjoyed, like building something from scratch. I enjoyed coming to to the company relatively early. And they enjoyed kind of the freedom that I had with military to to do stuff that they want to hire people that I like. So, yeah, probably I guess a lot of people are dreaming of like their own business and they behaved nine to five job. I have a nine to five job. I don’t hate it at all. I get to do like what I like doing. I get like much more benefits compared to if I was launching my own products. I think, like, each house was kind of like a trampoline for me, because if I if I try to do these kinds of things on my own, it would take me like much, much more time. So don’t don’t don’t shy away from jobs. They can be awesome, actually, and they can kick start like whatever you want to do next, because, like, it’s not that everyone will stay on their job for like for their whole life, which is not bad as well. If you feel that you’re progressing at your work and like something interesting is happening and you feel like it fulfills you, so it’s not a problem. So, yeah, I think the main takeaway for me is that nine to five job can be awesome. You can have flexibility, you can have a lot of perks. You can have freedom like. So that’s my take away the time.
Speaker 3: I guess my take would just be to actually do something just without someone telling you to do something. Just create something or do something that you want to do is likely to lead to the kind of job or vision or for the you want to actually get in your life. Just put something out there for in the world without being told to basically.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh, for me, I would say that it’s persistence without being annoying. Right. It’s there are people who have always been in those emails sequences, not email sequences, but like I guess they are sequences from one person doing outreach, but they don’t stop sending you. Oh, yeah. Well, you
Speaker 2: know,
Speaker 1: it’s like, oh, I mean, even know legal. And sometimes it comes back, I don’t know. Anyway, the idea is basically like no one for agencies. Like one thing would be to understand intent. And I guess that happens anyway is that you’re always looking at certain. But to understand intent on the level, I think it actually helps in in whatever it comes up to be. In this case, for me, like this is employment for me. It’s the first time I’ve been employed, I think, in my entire life. The same for me. Yeah. And so it’s a strange feeling. Yeah. That that would be that would be probably my main takeaway is persistence without being annoying. I know it sounds like a weird take away, but yeah I feel like there is value in that.
Speaker 2: OK, and they think that can wrap up this conversation. Maybe we should also add that it was like super random. So if we shared a lot of unnecessary and unnecessary details that bored someone sorry, unless we cut them out like in the process. But yeah, if you liked what you just heard, tell us probably will find the chance to record more of this stuff or maybe answer any other questions that you may have. So, yeah, give us some feedback if we should continue kind of this kind of content. Let’s all let’s wave bye bye bye.